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For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. (John 3:3) Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame. (Romans 10:9-11)
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23

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Catholic - Protestant Thread 2


Ok, the other one is getting full already. Here's the new debate thread for these matters.
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"All of Your goodness, the blood You have shed, the cross I now remember, lest I forget" -RSJ

10/12/2006, 8:41 am Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: Catholic - Protestant Thread 2


To reiterate what I messaged last night, I don’t approach this with a want to debate/argue. I’m someone seeking truth, someone who wants to know truth. I’m someone who even was dumb enough to be in the occult for a time so I have some first hand knowledge of some things, I’m not an expert by any means but I can recognize things from pagan wiccan beliefs.

A lot of what I knew I knew when I was still Catholic. I don’t even remember how or where I learned but I learned. The link that was posted about freemasonry and the witchcraft connection, I see an upside down pentagram on that symbol with a goat. An upside down pentagram is a satanic symbol, in fact black witches use upside down pentagrams; ‘good’ witches use it the normal way. Pyramids were built by the Egyptians who worshipped many gods. Pyramids are still fancied by pagans, wiccans, and new agers now, they’re known to have some ‘powers’ if you will. Is that because of it’s mere construction or a spirit/demon behind it? So, pyramids are in the Bible, mediums are in the Bible too but I know God wasn’t pleased with me when I was a medium.

In response to the question about other fraternal organizations, my family does belong to fraternal organizations. At least two for my Polish heritage, one for German, possibly Irish and Czech too but I don't remember for sure. None of those organizations involve oaths, odd jewelry or anything else. They're to promote ethnic heritage and knowing our roots and 2 at least have life insurance options. Freemasonry is a whole other ballpark, pretty much it's own religion.

As far as holy days and holidays. I learned of the connection when I was still Catholic as well. I honestly don’t remember how I learned it anymore, if I studied it in class or read a book, I don’t know. Jesus’ birth, by the fact that the shepards were in the field, would have been spring or fall, not December. Christmas or Candlemas is a pagan holiday. The way it was taught or what I learned way back was holy days were placed on or around pagan holidays to give the converts an alternative to celebrate, Halloween being a great example. I guess I had an attitude seeing that I need to ‘research things more’ as if I’m making this stuff up out of my head. I don’t have an attitude now. I don’t want to offend people but I don’t mind telling the truth either.

Jesus’ resurrection should be after Passover, instead it’s celebrated on Easter (originally a pagan holiday) whose date is determined by the stars. There’s a link from NASA that shows this and other such links as well. I knew about the pagan holiday/Christian holy day connection eons ago, yet another thing I just thought was common knowledge like the reformation.

And I am NOT posting this to bash, attack, to be anti-anything, please understand.

God bless you

Last edited by Hasah, 10/13/2006, 9:10 am
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Re: Catholic - Protestant Thread 2



To prepare for these days in honor of the dead, children in the British Isles would often go door-to-door to secure prayers on behalf of their departed relatives and friends. Many of the other elements of Halloween remain as traces from the pre-Christian Celtic pagan tribes, who would attempt to frighten off evil spirits by carving gourds (Jack-o-lanterns) and using them as lamps, by dressing as ghosts or goblins, and by offering feasts to their gods and other spirits.

Faith Seeking Understanding for October 30, 2005 - this is a blog by a Roman Catholic Priest



Date of Easter from NASA's site

Regarding freemasonry; Freemasonry: The Witchcraft Connection
I click on that link and the first graphic I see scrolling down is a goat with the background of an upside down pentagram, that's satanic symbolism. They explain white magick vs black magick etc but it's obviously all satan's deceptions in the world, there is no 'good' witch.

I will see if I can find a comparison chart somewhere showing the pagan version to the Christian version of holidays/holy days. I have homework to do, our site is down, I have a report to do and other stuff and i can get where I need to go.
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Re: Catholic - Protestant Thread 2


I also know this will probably be viewed as an attack and it saddens me that it will be but I will share it too. Again I'm not in the mindset of tearing down.

Babylon Mystery Religion

The first link on that page links to Alex Hislop's book;
The Two Babylons
or The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod
and His Wife
By the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop (1807-1862, pastor of East Free Church of Arbroath, Scotland)

Father God,

It is my prayer that this information is taken as someone who wants to be true to You and Your word. Someone who wants to be Biblically sound without anything that may deceive.

And I thank You Jesus for wooing me back from my wandering days. In Your holy name,
AMEN
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Re: Catholic - Protestant Thread 2


Also, Hislop's section on the Trinity had me confused for a time but I believe God led me to another site because the trinity, more properly termed the triune nature of God is clearly shown in the following information. I think what Hislop was saying was that the problem is when we turn God's triune nature into a 'mystery'. It wasn't a mystery to the Jews.
Jesus : God of the Old and New Testaments; Deity of Christ

Most Christians recognize that Jesus is God...but may not realize that He is also the revealed God of the Old Testament. We know that Jesus is "the Word" [John 1:1], and that no one has ever seen the Father [John 6:46, 1:18]. Since Jesus is the image of the invisible God [Colossians 1:15], then if anyone at anytime has seen God, then we should expect that they saw the image of the invisible God, the Word, Jesus.

Please don't confuse this link with the oneness movement, in the 2nd RAM file the speaker calls the oneness movement for what it is, heresy.

From What We Believe on their site;

1) We believe in one God. We believe that there was no God before Him, nor shall there be any other God after Him. We believe He has eternally existed in three persons: The Father, The Son/Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. All three are co-equal, co-eternal, and fully God.

NOTICE:
If the *.RAM files keep timing out for you, scroll down to the bottom of the page, left hand side under audio, the same files are in *.MP3 format.

"I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same supernatural food 4 and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ," (1 Cor. 10:1-4)

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
(1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

John 1:1-2 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.

God the Father, Jesus is also known as the Word and the Word was God, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. We see the triune nature here.

John 1:47-49 KJV
(47) Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
(48) Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
(49) Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Jesus demonstrated His omnipresence hence Nathaneal recognized He was God, the Son of God and God as in the King of Israel

Matthew 3:16-17 KJV
(16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
(17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

John 10:25-30 KJV
(25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
(26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
(30) I and my Father are one.

If you're not able to listen to the audio files they do have teachings including more Biblical references in .doc and .pdf formats. The .doc can open in Microsoft Word, Open Office or in Word Pad and .pdf in Adobe Acrobat Reader.

Last edited by Hasah, 10/13/2006, 12:17 pm
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Did the Catholic Church Have Its Origin in Paganism?


Author of Babylon Mystery Religion recants:

Did the Catholic Church Have Its Origin in Paganism?

A Protestant pastor tells This Rock how he got involved in the issue and how his understanding of the issue has changed.

By Ralph Woodrow


As a young preacher, I was introduced to The Two Babylons, a book written over a century earlier by Rev. Alexander Hislop, which claimed that the religion of ancient Babylon, under the leadership of Nimrod and his wife Semiramis, was disguised with Christian-sounding names and became what is known today as the Catholic Church.

"The essential character of her system, the grand objects of her worship, her festivals, her doctrine and discipline, her rites and ceremonies, her priesthood and their orders," Hislop wrote, "have all been derived from ancient Babylon." Furthermore, if Belshazzar were to come back to life "and enter St. Peter’s at Rome . . . he would conclude that he had only entered one of his own well-known temples, and that all things continued as they were at Babylon." Thus "two Babylons"—the ancient one in Babylon, the modern one being described in the book of Revelation as "Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth."

Hislop’s subtitle, The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and his Wife, seemed to me at the time to be factual. Though the arguments were complicated and difficult to follow, he did present all kinds of pagan parallels to rites and teachings of the Catholic Church. Consequently, some of us quoted Hislop as an authority on paganism, just like Webster might be quoted on word definitions.

I later wrote a book based on Hislop’s teaching called Babylon Mystery Religion. It became quite popular, went through many printings, and was translated into several languages. Many preferred my book over The Two Babylons because it was less involved and easier to read. Sometimes the two books were confused with each other. On one occasion someone mistakenly introduced me as "Rev. Hislop." Some people came to regard me as an authority on the subject. At the time, Karl Keating wrote: "Its best-known proponent is Ralph Woodrow, author of Babylon Mystery Religion."





My reason for pulling the original book out of print was quite basic: Citing similarities between Catholic practices and pagan practices proves nothing if there is no actual connection. One could take virtually anything—even McDonald’s golden arches—and do the same: The Encyclopedia Americana (article: "arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. As Babylon was called "the golden city" (Is. 14:4, KJV), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered again and again about the supposed pagan origins of the Catholic Church.

It is the same method atheists use in seeking to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Catholic Church. By this method, one also could condemn Protestant and Evangelical denominations such as the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist and Nazarene: Basic things such as prayer and kneeling in prayer would have to be rejected, as pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water. The list could go on and on.

By this method, even the Bible would have to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible were also known among pagans: raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, a city of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, the offering of first fruits, and tithes.

By this method, the Lord himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the "sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called "the bright morning star" (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4).





Years ago, someone handed me a copy of the "Knights of Columbus Oath," which was circulated at the time John F. Kennedy was running for president. This oath—supposedly taken by Catholic men—required relentless war (secretly or openly) against Protestants and Masons: to exterminate them from the face of the earth; to hang, strangle, waste, burn, boil, and bury alive these infamous heretics; to rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants’ heads against the walls.

Most copies of the oath—such as the one I was handed—had no return address, which should have raised suspicion. It did for me. Still, some believed it must be factual because it said, "Copied from the Congressional Record, Feb. 15, 1913." They failed to question why it was printed in the Congressional Record.

In 1912 a magazine called The Menace printed the bogus oath, supposing it to be authentic, but later admitted that there was no evidence it was. Meanwhile, Eugene Bonniwell, a Catholic, lost an election for Congress. He thought the circulation of the "oath" may have been partly responsible. When the elections committee made their report, the oath was used as an exhibit and condemned as spurious. That is how it came to be printed in the Congressional Record.

It is like saying the following statements were "copied from the Holy Bible": "Curse God, and die" (Job 2:9); "There is no God" (Ps. 14:1). One must look at the context. Valid evidence is not based on partial information.

So it is with claims about pagan origins. Even though Hislop quoted from many scholarly books, seemingly giving his thesis credibility, he often used partial information to make his claims. Two examples will suffice:

Hislop claimed the use of round communion wafers in the Catholic Church came from paganism. He cited Wilkinson (Egyptians, vol. 5, p. 353): "The thin, round cake occurs on all altars." But in Wilkinson’s book, he said that these cakes were of various kinds: round, oval, or triangular; some were shaped like leaves, in the form of an animal, a crocodile’s head, or some other figure. Hislop did not bother to give us this information.

In another appeal to Wilkinson, Hislop said that the forty days of Lent came from paganism: "Such a Lent of forty days was observed in Egypt, as can be seen on consulting Wilkinson’s Egyptians (vol. 1, p. 278)." But Wilkinson says Egyptian fasts "lasted from seven to forty-two days, and sometimes even a longer period."

To those who feel that finding Babylonian origins for present-day customs or practices is of great importance, my advice is to move cautiously, lest we major on minors. If there are things in our lives or churches that are indeed pagan or displeasing to the Lord, they should be dealt with, of course. But in attempting to defuse the confusion of Babylon, we must guard against creating a new "Babylon" of our own making.




Ralph Woodrow was born in 1939 and grew up in Riverside, California. Over the years he has had the opportunity to speak for hundreds of churches and groups in the United States and Canada. For five years in the early 1960s, his radio programs were carried on a number of stations. In connection with this he began writing, putting articles in print to a select mailing list. He is the author of fifteen books on Bible-related subjects with over 500,000 copies in print. For the past twenty-five years his residence has been in Palm Springs, California, where he lives with his wife, Arlene. Both are involved in a variety of Christian causes.

These are some excerpts from the article. Please click the link above to read it in its entirety. Thank you.

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Re: Catholic - Protestant Thread 2


God bless you all.

Last edited by Hasah, 10/14/2006, 8:12 am
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Re: Catholic - Protestant Thread 2


this is ONLY Information and NOT intended for debate.

EWTN TONIGHT,SATURDAY OCT 14,10 PM EST

FR JOHN CORAPI
TOPIC:
FATIMA TODAY

We also have a link to a live feed at our board.Anyone is welcome to use it.It's as good as live tv depending of course on connection speed.Still works well for slower connections.
GB!~
p4p

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Re: Catholic - Protestant Thread 2



The purpose of this page is to help people who want to better understand the occult nature of freemasonry and how to receive spiritual healing in the name of Jesus Christ either for themselves or their loved ones. We do not hate Masons. We are trying to help people help themselves and their families out of the curses associated with this form of idolatry.

This is one of the most accessed pages on this website, so there seems to be interest in this subject, and people are looking here for various reasons. If you are a Mason and want to straighten me out, we probably will not change each others' minds, so consider that before you write a lengthy diatribe or ugly email. I am also aware that there are many anti-mason websites run by "Christians" which are unkind, rude, and offensive to Masons. Those who call themselves Christians should remember Who we represent. I am not trying to "straighten out" or stir up Masons. This information is for people who want more information in this area.

and..

The Occult Nature of Freemasonry

 “The highly ritualized and secretive practices of freemasonry are based on degrees of initiation, involving the individual’s “death” and “rebirth,” in which increasing amounts of esoteric knowledge are imparted. The symbols and rituals imployed by alchemists, Rosicrucians, and Freemasons, as well as their ultimate purpose, are, to an extent, interlinked, and many have been absorbed into the vocabulary of the “mainstream” of the occult. Certainly most modern occultists sympathize with their common quest for spiritual knowledge and perfection.”

for whole page click here:
What the Bible Says about Secret Societies


Secret Societies

One of the constants in modern human society has been the existence of secret societies. From the Jewish Cabalists of pre-Roman times to the Freemasons of today, these societies have been created out of a human need to belong to an exclusive group. Many are linked, rightly or wrongly, with the supernatural.

Cabalists

The Cabala was a set of teachings closely intertwined with the Jewish faith. Early on, it was even included in what we today call the Bible. It included intimate information on angels and demons, as well as spells, medicines and special prayers. Only certain members of the Jewish community were allowed to learn the secrets of the Cabala, thus creating one of the earliest secret societies. Cabalism is actually more prevalent today and the information on it is easier to come by than in the time when it was first brought into being.

Rosicrucians

The next major secret society in the Western world were the Rosicrucians, a group of knights who fought in the Crusades and were supposedly instructed by the Cabalists in the Holy Land. The Rosicrucians1 were well known for their construction of beautiful cathedrals across the European landscape, all featuring lovely stained glass, and with at least one image of the rose which became their symbol. Legend has it that the Rosicrucians looted Jerusalem during the crusades, taking with them many of the most powerful relics in Christendom. These included pieces of the True Cross, the Holy Grail, and various bits from the bodies of saints. They stored these in secret compartments within their cathedrals. Many of the relics still haven't been found.

The Rosicrucians kept their tight rein on the 'underworld' of Europe for many centuries. Small groups such as the Golden Dawn tried to take the place of the Rosicrucians, but often found themselves persecuted by local churches, rather than gaining any power.

Freemasons

The next truly powerful secret society were the Freemasons, a group that remains forcibly active today. Some view the Freemasons as generally benign and helpful. They are community-oriented and give money to charity. But many of their roots apparently stem from the Cabalistic teachings of the Rosicrucians, and there are those that view with some suspicion the mysterious rituals which they allegedly perform.
Secret Societies BBC UK



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Re: Catholic - Protestant Thread 2



The Old New Age, Session 2 Title: Mystery Religions and Secret Societies

The word "mystery" comes from Greek word meaning "one who keeps quiet"
a. implies an "initiate," a person introduced to the secret rites of a mystery.


Is there such a thing as The Illuminati? Does this fit into our sophisticated age? Some ridicule the very idea, but in these chapters a fascinating portrayal is uncovered.
Are such words as Illuminism or The Iliuminati new to you? That is not strange, for today these expressions are unknown to millions, even among many well educated people. This results from the plan to keep that giant Conspiracy under cover, to always remain secret.
Introduction to Illuminati-666



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