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For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. (John 3:3) Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame. (Romans 10:9-11)
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23

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Was Peter the first Pope?


I keep hearing this, but I'm not so sure. So I thought I'd look up some info. I found this here:
http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq319.html It seems to make sense.


The office of Pope was created by the same people who wrote the Alexandrian texts of the Bible, more or less. It was an earthly office designed to establish a command structure to a church. However, Peter was never named Pope, nor was anyone else until several centuries after Christ.

The belief that Peter was Pope springs from several misconceptions. First, Jesus calls Peter a stone (Dcephas), then indicates himself (Jesus) when He says that "upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." People mistakenly think that Jesus is calling Peter a “rock,” but He isn't. He deliberately calls Peter a “stone” to show the difference. Each of us can be used of Christ, but only Jesus is big enough and solid enough to be the main support.

Also, Peter is "given the keys to Heaven," in one verse. But, this seems to be a generic thing for all followers - Peter is just one of any of us who has the power to pray and bind or loose things.

Not only that, but the very fact that there is an office of "pope" goes against teachings in Scripture. When James and John were debating about which would be greater, Jesus scolded them, saying that the greatest on earth will be least in Heaven. That means that aspiring to earthly greatness (like attaining the position of pope) is a sign of wanting personal glory, and not the glory of Christ, to go forth. Peter would never have accepted such an office.



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"All of Your goodness, the blood You have shed, the cross I now remember, lest I forget" -RSJ

12/18/2006, 11:00 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: Was Peter the first Pope?



The belief that Peter was Pope springs from several misconceptions. First, Jesus calls Peter a stone (Dcephas), then indicates himself (Jesus) when He says that "upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." People mistakenly think that Jesus is calling Peter a “rock,” but He isn't. He deliberately calls Peter a “stone” to show the difference.

Jesus said THOU ART.
This indicates He was speaking directly about Peter and that He was telling him what he was.
And nope..not stone.That would be lithos or evna.
Not Cephas,Kephas,Petra.He did not call Peter a stone.

Also, Peter is "given the keys to Heaven," in one verse. But, this seems to be a generic thing for all followers - Peter is just one of any of us who has the power to pray and bind or loose things.

Nope RE READ THE VERSE.Keys mean authority-only given to Peter by Jesus.The power to bind and loose was exactly that.The power to bind and loose(it's a rabbinical term meaning teaching authority).The verse says nothing about the power to pray.It refers to the POWER TO BIND AND LOOSE.


Not only that, but the very fact that there is an office of "pope" goes against teachings in Scripture. When James and John were debating about which would be greater, Jesus scolded them, saying that the greatest on earth will be least in Heaven. That means that aspiring to earthly greatness (like attaining the position of pope) is a sign of wanting personal glory, and not the glory of Christ, to go forth. Peter would never have accepted such an office.

not it doesn't. What goes against scripture is every man for himself.
The greatest title the power has is Servant of the Servants of God.
Nobody aspires to be Pope btw.
Cardinal Ratzinger wanted to retire and Pope John Paul had no idea he would become Pope-none. You don't run for election to be Pope.
The teachings of the Church are attacked left and right so there isn't a prayer of having personal glory.You are hated as much as loved. A Cardinal of the Church wears a red hat.That is to signify his committment to shed blood for the faith if necessary.
Which JPII did when he was assasinated.
The very first words of JPII were"Be Not Afraid..Open Wide The Doors to Christ."
GB!~
p4p

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1/22/2007, 5:28 pm Link to this post send email  to praying4patience   send pm to praying4patience Blog
 
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Re: Was Peter the first Pope?



Nobody aspires to be Pope btw.

What about those who have killed and fought for it? Why were there times when there were two or more fighting for the position? It seems that they certainly wanted it to me. Have you read some of the history? Or are you deliberately misleading us?
And who decided that the Roman bishop should be the head of the Church instead of the Council?



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"All of Your goodness, the blood You have shed, the cross I now remember, lest I forget" -RSJ

2/12/2007, 1:57 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: Was Peter the first Pope?


  The Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15 and Galatians 2) was the first Church Council.In order to understand why the Pope and not a council is the head of the Church I suggest reading ABOUT the councils.Historically they were callled to address a particular heresy and to set the doctrine of the Church straight.


It seems that they certainly wanted it to me.

I'm not trying to mislead anyone.Most popes do not really vie for the position. There's no campaign to get it let's put that way. Anotherwords they don't go out on the stump.


That means that aspiring to earthly greatness (like attaining the position of pope) is a sign of wanting personal glory, and not the glory of Christ, to go forth. Peter would never have accepted such an office.

The highest title of the office of Pope is "servant of the servants of God."

Peter did accept authority.Jesus was not against authority in principle-not even all earthly authority. He even told the ppl to obey their religous authorities because they sat in Moses seat;just not follow their example.Jesus taught the right use of authority.

Some Popes were more earthly motivated-it's an understatement to say that they weren't very holy.That's true. Infallibility does not mean sinless or impeccable.A few became known as great;many canonized saints. But you are right.Not all were what they ought to have been.
Anti Catholic sites don't give a broad history-they focus on one or two popes.
 I don't always get into a lot of detail either-i figure if ppl want to know they can look all this stuff up,but i wouldn't go to an Anti Catholic site to do it.



Peter is just one of any of us who has the power to bind or loose things.

Where is the verse?.Keys were not generic.I know you read your OT.What did key mean there?

Re read the verse where Jesus gives Peter the keys,the power to bind and loose and the power to forgive sins.

Jesus did not call Simon a stone.He says THOU ART telling Simon what He is and it's not stone;Simon told Jesus THOU ART telling Jesus He was the Messiah.THOU ART has meaning as does a name change.
GB!~
p4p




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4/14/2007, 12:12 pm Link to this post send email  to praying4patience   send pm to praying4patience Blog
 
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Re: Was Peter the first Pope?


It is unproven and widely refuted that Peter was the first "pope" of the Catholic church.

Anyone can do a simple internet search and find all sorts of information on this, both pro and con.
So, anyone who's not convinced one way or the other, research and make a decision on what you believe. I've made mine.


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I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
4/15/2007, 12:22 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: Was Peter the first Pope?



It is unproven and widely refuted that Peter was the first "pope" of the Catholic church.

only on anti Catholic sites that don't unprove it and try to only because they have to Mel.

The Church is approx 2,000 yr old making it THE oldest Christian body in exsitence and the Vatican is in Rome which geographically speaking makes it closest to the first Christian communities...whereas the other denominations both by time and location are just too far away.

So what IS this proof Mel?

GB!~
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4/15/2007, 5:22 pm Link to this post send email  to praying4patience   send pm to praying4patience Blog
 
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Re: Was Peter the first Pope?



So what IS this proof Mel?


Proof? I didn’t say I had proof, I only said that you didn’t. How about this?
In 382, the council of Rome, under Damasus’ leadership declared Rome’s pre-eminence due to the pope’s position as successor to Peter. This exalted view was not accepted for some time, but was the foundation for the eventual supremacy of the bishop of Rome in the church of the Middle Ages.

See, before this, Rome was not prominent over the other councils, they were equal.
Someone got power-hungry and there’s your “Rebellion.”


---
I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
4/15/2007, 11:21 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Early Church Fathers:bishop of Rome


“Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry."
St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, 44:1-2, c. AD 80



"You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107


"The Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things 'just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the Tradition is one and the same."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1, 10, 2, c. AD 190


"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again."
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 7:1, AD 107


“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration, and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus.”
St. Justin Martyr, First Apology 66, A.D. 151


“Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved…Accept our counsel, and you will have nothing to regret…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger…You will afford us joy and gladness if, being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy.”
St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, 1: 58–59, 63, A.D. 80


“Ignatius…to the church also which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans, 1:1, A.D. 110


"It is possible, then, for every Church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the Apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times…But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3, 3, 1-2, c. AD 190


“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’…On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” [see endnote]
St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church, 1st edition, A.D. 251


“(T)hey have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: “I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.” And the vessel of divine election himself said: “If ye have forgiven anything to any one, I forgive also, for what I have forgiven I have done it for your sakes in the person of Christ.”
St. Ambrose of Milan, On Penance, Book One, Ch. VII, v. 33, c. A.D. 390.


“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, 3.2, ca. A.D. 110


“There is nothing more serious than the sacrilege of schism because there is no just cause for severing the unity of the Church.”
St. Augustine, Treatise On Baptism Against the Donatists, Bk 5, Ch. 1, A.D. 400


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4/23/2007, 11:56 am Link to this post send email  to praying4patience   send pm to praying4patience Blog
 
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Re: Was Peter the first Pope?


Sorry. Sola Scriptura. Anything in Scriptures suggesting this?



---
I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
4/23/2007, 1:35 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: Was Peter the first Pope?


JPII's assasination attempt, I was home from school that day, I remember it very well.

on esword, pasting in the numbers... sorry

Mat 16:18 KJV+
(18) And1161 I say also2504, 3004 unto thee,4671 That3754 thou4771 art1488 Peter,4074 and2532 upon1909 this5026 rock4073 I will build3618 my3450 church;1577 and2532 the gates4439 of hell86 shall not3756 prevail against2729 it.846

Number for Peter;
G4074 (Strong's numbers)
Πέτρος
Petros
pet'-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

G4074 (New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance)
Πέτρος
Petros; a noun akin to G4073, used as a proper name; “a stone” or “a boulder,” Peter, one of the twelve apostles: - Peter (150), Peter’s (5).

the number for rock

G4073 (Strong's)
πέτρα
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

G4073
πέτρα
petra; a prim. word; a (large mass of) rock: - rock (10), rocks (3), rocky (2).

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...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
4/23/2007, 3:14 pm Link to this post  
 


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