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For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. (John 3:3) Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame. (Romans 10:9-11)
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23

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Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Registered: 07-2006
Location: Here I am
Posts: 1876
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Re: Tradition vs the Bible



Yes, me Ms. former anti-Catholic stepping in. One of the things Protestants hold firm to is references in the New Testament to what belongs in the Old Testament. This may suprise the Protestants.

Still, this doesn't change the point. There were other books quoted or referred to in Scripture. It doesn't mean that the "annals of the kings of Judah" were removed from Scripture.

You shall know them by their fruits.

And you've really gotta be careful with that one. I'm not saying that it pertains in this partictular instance, but I know a lot of atheists who are really nice people.
What about psychics who help in police investigations? Is that good fruit? Does that mean that Christians should use them?



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I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
5/28/2007, 10:14 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
HasahZ Profile
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Apostle

Registered: 12-2006
Location: Bless my enemies!
Posts: 84
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Re: Tradition vs the Bible



Still, this doesn't change the point. There were other books quoted or referred to in Scripture. It doesn't mean that the "annals of the kings of Judah" were removed from Scripture.

I have more Protestant versions of the Bible now but I still have my original Catholic Bible from 1984. I do at some point when I'm not in the midst of the job hunt and school, plan to look through it more. The version I have includes historical information and the like with it. I think of the quote on that site;

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

Jesus told us to love our enemies...

You shall know them by their fruits.

And you've really gotta be careful with that one. I'm not saying that it pertains in this partictular instance, but I know a lot of atheists who are really nice people.
What about psychics who help in police investigations? Is that good fruit? Does that mean that Christians should use them?

I know scripture tells us there are many parts and one body. God knows our hearts. If I took it as far as my ex-fiancé wanted to I’d say Islam is acceptable in God’s eyes too which is plain wrong. A little digging shows who Allah is and it’s not the God of Israel that Jews and Christians worship. The Jews still need to accept and follow the Messiah.

Being one that was involved in the occult without even realizing I was, most of my friends were in the occult, I have experienced ‘good’ coming from that deception. I could even give examples from my own experiences in it however there was always deception or untruths/half truths (same thing) dropped in here and there. The deceiver is incapable of remaining true because he is the father of lies. He will drop enough truth to hook people but he can’t remain true. The Bible specifically states to avoid those with a spirit of divination, familiar spirits etc so the obvious answer is no, Christians should not use psychics.

If you mark off the entire Catholic faith, you're then marking off entire countries. Poland for example is predominantly Catholic and has been since 966 AD, when it first appeared on the maps. That's where the custom of Wet Easter Monday comes from, Smigus Dyngus In Buffalo, yeah, they call it Dyngus day but it's always been Smigus Dyngus in Polish.

And back to loving our enemies, I sure was being an enemy of anything and everything Catholic when I was bashing it so badly. I had my own bad experiences which I can’t blame on a whole denomination.

Mat 5:44-46 KJV
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
(46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

I definately qualifed as being one that was an enemy and yet I've received love.

Many members, one body... the key being IN CHRIST. Are there pew warmers in the Catholic Church? Yeah, I was one of them, are there pew warmers in the many Protestant denominations? Yeah, you bet. Just like the Jews, the key is the Messiah, to take up our cross and follow Jesus.

Last edited by HasahZ, 5/29/2007, 5:58 am


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...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
5/29/2007, 4:35 am Link to this post  
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Registered: 07-2006
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WARM FUZZY POINTS: 27 (+28/-1)
Re: Tradition vs the Bible



The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

Again, go back further.
In 443 BC, the 39 Books of the OT were completed in the original Hebrew

The Jamnia council is irrelevent, because prior to this, the Jewish Cannon was complete.

Jesus told us to love our enemies...

I don't consider Catholics my enemies, but their theology is off, and I cannot accept it as valid. But that certainly doesn't mean that there aren't any saved people in the Catholic church, because I believe there are.



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I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
5/29/2007, 7:23 am Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
HasahZ Profile
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Apostle

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Re: Tradition vs the Bible


I'm referencing enemies as far as how my bitterness was affecting people. Out of everyone it affected I was worst with the Catholics that were on this board. I was brutal; I had a hatred for Catholicism and wanted to rip it apart. Hatred isn’t acting in love. Out of the many that my bitterness affected I’ve received the most love and forgiveness from the same people I was attempting to shove my views at last year. Taking that further the fact that I have health insurance, new glasses and I can see clearer thanks to what God did for me through Catholic Charities, as well as all my inflammation in my eyes gone, first time since the early 90’s… I’ve seen a I’ve of good fruit.

Again, go back further.
In 443 BC, the 39 Books of the OT were completed in the original Hebrew

I'll keep looking, I've been seeking God on many things these days. I guess the key being BC verses AD. Perhaps it also has to do with the amount of references in the OT from those books vs the amount from the others?

I had a vendetta last year, I wanted revenge because I blamed the RCC for my giving up on religion and going to church... that was plain wrong thinking but I'm human. That's no excuse.

Last edited by HasahZ, 5/29/2007, 9:12 am


---
...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
5/29/2007, 8:45 am Link to this post  
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: Tradition vs the Bible


I hold no hatred toward Catholics, nor do I have any toward you for your previous vendetta.

However, this does not mean that I'll accept things that I believe to be incorrect theology, or tolerate the accusation that Protestants removed portions of the Bible.
The Apochrypha was added, and then it was taken out again. I find it deceptive (on the part of Catholics ) to stop at the point where it was taken out, knowing full well that it was added prior to that and was not in the original completed Jewish Cannon of 443 BC.
   

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I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
5/29/2007, 12:47 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
HasahZ Profile
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Re: Tradition vs the Bible


Keep in mind, at this point I am still Protestant and don't see that changing at this point then again there's a lot that's happened that I didn't expect. And yes I did grow up believing Protestants had taken books out of the Bible. If it is true that Jamnia rejected those books and that's why Luther rejected them then it quite possibly is true. You can't deny what became the Catholic Church kept the scriptures at that point (from Jesus’ death & resurrection on). Yes it was good for the Bible to be made available in the native languages of people in their lands as many did not speak Latin. Can we trace what happened between 400 something BC to 90-100 AD to know for certain what Jesus and His disciples viewed as sacred writ?

Lord help me, I really don't want to take the temptation of slipping into the old me that You've been working on with me. I'm still getting junk worked out of me that I've been seeking God on big time, getting out a root that goes back many years. All I know is how much I angered people, the results of what happened and knowing it was against the Catholics I was the vilest and the unconditional forgiveness I've received. You shall know them by their fruits. I'm not saying everyone else bore bad fruit, I'm just stating it speaks loud and clear to me.

Once again, it's not what denomination saves us, it's not sitting in a church that saves us, it's if we really truly know Jesus. That goes for the Jew and the Gentile. One body, many members IN CHRIST. Jesus didn’t go through what He did so we could all be arguing, what testimony is that to the world? Is that acting like we’re in Christ or in the world?

Last edited by HasahZ, 5/29/2007, 2:20 pm


---
...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
5/29/2007, 1:40 pm Link to this post  
 
HasahZ Profile
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Re: Tradition vs the Bible


The creed I grew up saying in church every Sunday. I can NOT blame the RCC that I personally didn't 'get it', that was my problem and mine alone.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sin, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

Some question if Jesus went to 'hell'/hades before He rose on the 3rd day...

Act 2:30-31 KJV
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Keep in mind, Catholic means universal.

Last edited by HasahZ, 5/29/2007, 3:30 pm


---
...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
5/29/2007, 3:07 pm Link to this post  
 
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Re: Tradition vs the Bible



Keep in mind, Catholic means universal.

Not really. Capitolized, it is generally referring to the Roman Catholic church. Lower case, it means "universal", but that argument is often used in the attempt to say that the RCC is the one true Church.
By the same logic, should we accept the Unitarian Universalist as the one true Church, because it says "universal" in the name? emoticon Not gonna happen.

You shall know them by their fruits.

Be careful with that one.
I've already mentioned the "good" psychics in this thread. Keep in mind that even Satan himself will masquerade as an angel of light. What is the standard to keep from being deceived?

Be like the Bereans, searching Scripture to find out if what you are being taught is true.
And do not hate, in God's eyes, it's the same as murder.


Last edited by Order ofMelchizedek, 6/18/2007, 10:46 pm


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I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
6/18/2007, 10:40 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
praying4patience Profile
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Re: Tradition vs the Bible


it's been a good long while since i've been able to get back here.in fact i don't often get a chance to make it to our own board.
First...i think the biggest problem with this thread is the presumption of the title.Scripture VS Tradition.It's Scripture AND Tradition Mel.NOT VS.

Tradition is what gave us the canon of the Christian Bible and its inspired books.


or tolerate the accusation that Protestants removed portions of the Bible.

but they did;keep in mind that the accusation is usually that the Church added them.You can't add to what is already there.They were removed. However,even the KJV 1611 included them.

Re The Jewish Canon
ADDED OR REMOVED?

My main point is pitting Scripture against Tradition in the thread which makes it seem as if one has to make a choice and that we,as Catholics,do.

Not so Mel.For us it's scripture AND tradition.
God bless,
p4p


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9/27/2007, 12:21 pm Link to this post send email  to praying4patience   send pm to praying4patience Blog
 
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Re: Tradition vs the Bible


Hey P4P, how ya been?




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I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
9/27/2007, 12:51 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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