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For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. (John 3:3) Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame. (Romans 10:9-11)
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23

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Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Skeptical of Evolution


Here are a couple of interesting links.
Scientists on Evolution


"I admit that an awful lot of that has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs (in the American Museum) is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable, particularly because the people who propose these kinds of stories themselves may be aware of the speculative nature of some of the stuff. But by the time it filters down to the textbooks, we've got science as truth and we've got a problem." (Dr. Niles Eldridge, Curator of Invertebrate Paleontology at the American Museum)


Emporium Turnpike

"...the philosophy of evolution is based upon assumptions that cannot be scientifically verified...whatever evidence can be assembled for evolution is both limited and circumstantial in nature." G.A. Kerkut, pro-evolution

There were once considered to be 180 vestigial organs (organs of no use that evolutionists use to say we evolved out of). Today, there are medically regarded as being no vestigial organs. For example, the appendix is noted as able to fight infection in early life and tonsils destroy harmful bacteria.

It was once thought that ...an organism was assumed to pass through the stages of its evolutionary history during its development as an embryo." "(This) has been thoroughly discredited by scientists today." What as thought to be `gill slits' is actually the formation of the middle ear canal, jaw, and parts of the head and neck.
The coccyx, once regarded as a literal tail bone, is now known to be a muscle attachment in the embryo and as providing support to the pelvic region in the fully developed bodies.

"Why not consider the possibility that life is what it so evidently seems to be, the product of creative intelligence? Science would not come to an end, because the task would remain of deciphering the languages in which genetic information is communicated, and in general finding out how the whole system works. What scientists would lose is not an inspiring research program, but the illusion of total mastery of nature. They would have to face the possibility that beyond the natural world there is a further reality which transcends science."


 emoticon

---
Carry me, I'm just a dead man lying on the carpet, can't find a heartbeat,
Make me breathe, I wanna be a new man, tired of the old one, out with the old plan - JoC

2/14/2008, 11:09 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


Ridiculous stuff! Yet people would rather buy that garbage than to acknowledge our Creator. emoticon



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Lord, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I’m not scared 'cause You’re holding my breath.
I only fear that I don’t have enough time left, to tell the world that there’s no time left. -G1C

9/4/2008, 10:48 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
Tim Callahan Profile
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


I have a proposal for you, Mel. If you want a serious discussion of evolution vs. creationism, we could debate it in the following format:

You raise a specific objection to evolution, not a whole plethora, and I'll answer that. I, in turn, will point out what I see as a single flaw, again not a plethora, in the creationist argument, and you will answer that. We can then go on to another point. Thus, we can have an orderly discussion.

First, though, I need to know who I'm arguing with, i.e. your specific position as a creationist. Are you an old earth creationist, like Hugh Ross, or are you a young earth creationist, like the people at the Intitute for Creation Research? If you are a young earth creationist, then our first order of debate has to be the age of the earth and of the universe itself.

Now, as to my position, for the sake of transparency: I am a conditional atheist. That is to say that, while I don't believe in God, I'm perfectly willing to look at arguments for this God's existence. I think ou will bfind that most atheists share this view.

I might also point out that the reason for my unbelief has nothing to do with evolution. All the while that I was a believer I accepted theistic evolution.

One of the expert witnesses on the evolution side at the trial on the Dover, Pennsylvania school board's policy if teaching creationism was Kennith Miller, author of one of the main high school biology texts, simply titled "Biology." This text has about 100 pages devoted to a reasonably thorough exploration of evolution. Kennith Miller is also a devout Roman Catholic. There need be no argument between evolution and Christianity.

Now, as to your attack on the horse series: Niles Eldrich was not attacking the idea of equine evolution. What he objected to was the presentation of what has been referred to as the "hat rack" model of evolution. It is more formally called orthogenesis. Specifically, this means that horses, or whatever else is supposed to have evolved by orthogenesis, evolved in a straight line, with only a few offshoots, which quiickly died out (hence the similarity to a hat rack). The horse had been presented as a the perfect endpoint to a model of evolution that implied, if it didn't acually say outright, a plan and an order to evolution.

Eldrich and others have pointed out that there were several parallel lines of equine evolution that persisted for some time. There was also a significant shift in the diet of horses in the Miocene, from brousing to grazing. Thus, their evoution did not move in a straight line, but with a significant jog. Equine evolution, rather than showing order and culminating in the perfection of modern horses, shows a great deal of disorder and a line that was once far more successful than it is today: Of the many lines of horses, all all but one genus, Equus, were wiped out.

Let me know, Mel, if you are open to my idea of a debate.

Tim
2/8/2009, 10:41 am Link to this post send email  to Tim Callahan   send pm to Tim Callahan
 
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


Well Tim, it sounds like a reasonable offer. However, I haven't been spending as much time on the boards lately, and I've got some other stuff coming up that will probably keep me away even more. I'm not really up for a debate at this time. But there are others here who might be interested.
Elim? Free? Whatcha think?


---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
Son of God and Light of the world
Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/8/2009, 10:04 pm Link to this post send pm to Order ofMelchizedek
 
Free04 Profile
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


When debate is involved people are looking of one thing, that is victory. Debate tells me that you have 2 sides, not in search for truth, but of victory. I prefer discussion.
 I am full of questions, but I don't question evolution as it relates to changes within a species. I think science has resolved that. The questions I have relates to Origins. Let's start with origin of life. How did life originate? Take it away Tim.

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John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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ball busterbob Profile
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Don't believe anything he says

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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


An' the dog ate his homework.........

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Tim Callahan Profile
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


Well, Free,

As I put it to Mel, I need to know one thing before we begin, so I will know what questions to put to you. What I need to know from you is: Are you and old earth creationist or a young earth creationist? For clarification, that means do think the earth was created only a few thousand years ago or do you accept that it is about 4.5 billion years old? I need to know this so I'll know who I'm arguing with.

Once you tell me your position on the age of the earth - just that, a position, not a detailed argument for your view - I will respond with a detailed argument / explanation of the scientific view of the origin of life.

Along with that explanation, I will have a question for you.

Tim
2/9/2009, 10:38 am Link to this post send email  to Tim Callahan   send pm to Tim Callahan
 
ball busterbob Profile
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


Tim.......................

Do you actually think that concept will work.......?

I bet a nickle to a worn out shoe yous don't get anywhere tryin' to...make sense!

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Free04 Profile
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution



Tim Callahan wrote:

Well, Free,

As I put it to Mel, I need to know one thing before we begin, so I will know what questions to put to you. What I need to know from you is: Are you and old earth creationist or a young earth creationist? For clarification, that means do think the earth was created only a few thousand years ago or do you accept that it is about 4.5 billion years old? I need to know this so I'll know who I'm arguing with.

Once you tell me your position on the age of the earth - just that, a position, not a detailed argument for your view - I will respond with a detailed argument / explanation of the scientific view of the origin of life.

Along with that explanation, I will have a question for you.

Tim



Well Tim, to be honest with you I think my view of how old the earth is is irrelevant to the answer for origin of life. Let's for the sake of discussion, not debate, assume I was never born. Take it away Tim.



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2/9/2009, 12:57 pm Link to this post send email  to Free04   send pm to Free04
 
Tim Callahan Profile
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


While your views on the age of the earth don't have anything to do with the origin of life, they do have to do with the course the debate will take after I respond to your question. Remember, the idea of the debate I proposed to Mel was two-way. In other words, once I answer a question you have posed, you have to answer one I pose.

Now, I have been above board with you, even to the point of using my own name, which none of the rest of you have done. (I excuse Elim 10 in this regard, because I don't want sixteen year old girls giving personal information over the internet.) You know where I stand and what I beieve. If we are to debate, I need to know where you stand. I really can't think of any reason you should be evasive when I ask you a simple question regarding your beliefs concerning creationism and the age of the earth.

As to the question of the origin of life, I will not have time to deal with it tonight, because it requires more detail than I now have time to flesh out. I will, however respond to your question in detail, probably within the next 24 hours. I will answer this question regardless of whether you tell me your position on the age of the earth; but if, following that, you do not answer this question, our debate ends with that post.

Tim
2/9/2009, 3:17 pm Link to this post send email  to Tim Callahan   send pm to Tim Callahan
 


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