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For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. (John 3:3) Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame. (Romans 10:9-11)
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


ya right...good luc......~!

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Re: Skeptical of Evolution



Tim Callahan wrote:

While your views on the age of the earth don't have anything to do with the origin of life, they do have to do with the course the debate will take after I respond to your question. Remember, the idea of the debate I proposed to Mel was two-way. In other words, once I answer a question you have posed, you have to answer one I pose.

Now, I have been above board with you, even to the point of using my own name, which none of the rest of you have done. (I excuse Elim 10 in this regard, because I don't want sixteen year old girls giving personal information over the internet.) You know where I stand and what I beieve. If we are to debate, I need to know where you stand. I really can't think of any reason you should be evasive when I ask you a simple question regarding your beliefs concerning creationism and the age of the earth.

As to the question of the origin of life, I will not have time to deal with it tonight, because it requires more detail than I now have time to flesh out. I will, however respond to your question in detail, probably within the next 24 hours. I will answer this question regardless of whether you tell me your position on the age of the earth; but if, following that, you do not answer this question, our debate ends with that post.

Tim


Well, we agree right of the bat. (my views don't have anything to do with origin of life). As I said before I am not interested in debate or argument. I prefer discussion. Debate=search for victory, Discussion=search for truth.
I have read many of your post's over at Dogs board. You appear to be a very intelligent person, but I honestly don't see the need in point by point debate, it's all over the internet. I will honestly admit that I have spent way to many hours reading these debates that have the same conclusion. You have come here with a challenge to Mel for debate, knowing what Mel's view is, therefore I am going to assume you know how life originated. I just want you to share your knowledge so that I may know.
I have been in search of this for a long time so let it rip. I await anxiously for this newly found revelation of how life originated.


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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


Okay, call it a discussion if you like. I would still like a bit more transparency from you. Suppose, for example, I ask you why you think the world is only, say, about ten thousand years old, and it turns out that you're an old earth creationist and accept that the world is about 4.5 billion years old? Then both of us will have wasted a great deal of time. So, what are you afraid of when it comes to frankly revealing what your position is concerning the age of the earth?

Now, as to the origin of life, there have been several experiments made that demonstrate that in a variety of diffeent atmopheres inputs of concentrated energy can produce a a variety of organic compounds, including most amino acids (the building blocks of protiens). Among these is the famous 1953 Urey - Miller experiment (usually badly misrepresented in creationist texts, as is everything else about evolution), in which electrical discharges were used to simulate lightning in a reducing atmosphere, a mix of hydrogen, ammonia, methane, carbon dioxide and water vapor. A host of organic compounds were produced, including most amino acids, the building blocks of proteins

Another interesting experiment along these lines involved hypersonic creation of organic molecules. A bullet was fired through an atosphere contaning a mix of carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and methane, among other simple compounds, to simulate the shock wave of a meteorite entering the atmosphere or through such an atmosphere into water (Keosian 1964. pp. 82, 83). Again, a mix of organic compounds was formed. Oro and Kimball synthesized adenine, one of the key componenents of DNA. in 1961 by heating a solution of ammonium cyanide for 24 hrs. at 90 degrees C (a bit under the boiling point of water (Keosian 1964, p. 55). These are but a few such experiments that I found in a little book called "The Origin of Life," written by John Keosian in 1964 (New York: Reinhold Publishing Corporation).

So, a variety of different energy sources - ionizing radiation, lightning, shock waves from meteorites and even heat below the boiling point of water - are sufficient to convert basic atmospheric components into the building blocks of life.

Of course, it's one thing to create the basic building blocks of life. It's quite another to produce life itself. However, starting with the building blocks, Dr. Sydney Fox, among others, has, using heat, converted amono cids into proteinoid microspheres capable of certain biological functions (see Keosian, among others).

We have not yet solved such problems as how proteins and nucleic acids have teamed up in living things or the details of the emergence of life from cmplex non-living systems. However, we also don't yet know how it is that DNA codes for specific amino acids. That doesn't change the fact that it does.

While this evidence is as yet incomplete, it yeilds strong support for the thesis that life can arise spontaniously from non-living systems. You may not consider this sufficient evidence of the origin of life by purely natural means; however, the only alternative you have is that God did it though supernatural means, which simply isn't science.

Now it's my turn to ask you a question as per the conditions I initially proposed to Mel. Since you seem to believe both that God is the author of natural law, which he would have to be, as creator of the universe, and at the same time seem to believe that he created the universe and life supernaturally; my question is this: Why would God first create natural law, then overthrow it to create the universe, life and human beings?

I must also demand - if that's not too strong a word - that yu be straight with me regarding your beliefs concerning the age of the earth. If you do not answer this question unequivically, our discussion comes to an abrupt end.

Tim

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Re: Skeptical of Evolution



Tim Callahan wrote:

Okay, call it a discussion if you like. I would still like a bit more transparency from you. Suppose, for example, I ask you why you think the world is only, say, about ten thousand years old, and it turns out that you're an old earth creationist and accept that the world is about 4.5 billion years old? Then both of us will have wasted a great deal of time. So, what are you afraid of when it comes to frankly revealing what your position is concerning the age of the earth?

Now, as to the origin of life, there have been several experiments made that demonstrate that in a variety of diffeent atmopheres inputs of concentrated energy can produce a a variety of organic compounds, including most amino acids (the building blocks of protiens). Among these is the famous 1953 Urey - Miller experiment (usually badly misrepresented in creationist texts, as is everything else about evolution), in which electrical discharges were used to simulate lightning in a reducing atmosphere, a mix of hydrogen, ammonia, methane, carbon dioxide and water vapor. A host of organic compounds were produced, including most amino acids, the building blocks of proteins

Another interesting experiment along these lines involved hypersonic creation of organic molecules. A bullet was fired through an atosphere contaning a mix of carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and methane, among other simple compounds, to simulate the shock wave of a meteorite entering the atmosphere or through such an atmosphere into water (Keosian 1964. pp. 82, 83). Again, a mix of organic compounds was formed. Oro and Kimball synthesized adenine, one of the key componenents of DNA. in 1961 by heating a solution of ammonium cyanide for 24 hrs. at 90 degrees C (a bit under the boiling point of water (Keosian 1964, p. 55). These are but a few such experiments that I found in a little book called "The Origin of Life," written by John Keosian in 1964 (New York: Reinhold Publishing Corporation).

So, a variety of different energy sources - ionizing radiation, lightning, shock waves from meteorites and even heat below the boiling point of water - are sufficient to convert basic atmospheric components into the building blocks of life.

Of course, it's one thing to create the basic building blocks of life. It's quite another to produce life itself. However, starting with the building blocks, Dr. Sydney Fox, among others, has, using heat, converted amono cids into proteinoid microspheres capable of certain biological functions (see Keosian, among others).

We have not yet solved such problems as how proteins and nucleic acids have teamed up in living things or the details of the emergence of life from cmplex non-living systems. However, we also don't yet know how it is that DNA codes for specific amino acids. That doesn't change the fact that it does.

While this evidence is as yet incomplete, it yeilds strong support for the thesis that life can arise spontaniously from non-living systems. You may not consider this sufficient evidence of the origin of life by purely natural means; however, the only alternative you have is that God did it though supernatural means, which simply isn't science.

Now it's my turn to ask you a question as per the conditions I initially proposed to Mel. Since you seem to believe both that God is the author of natural law, which he would have to be, as creator of the universe, and at the same time seem to believe that he created the universe and life supernaturally; my question is this: Why would God first create natural law, then overthrow it to create the universe, life and human beings?

I must also demand - if that's not too strong a word - that yu be straight with me regarding your beliefs concerning the age of the earth. If you do not answer this question unequivically, our discussion comes to an abrupt end.

Tim




I guess we'll have to conclude this. The fact is that my view has nothing to do with the origin of live Tim. Life originated regardless of what I or you believe. That is FACT. All of the evidence you have presented proves one thing about the origin of Life and that is that science does not know and cannot prove how life originated, therefore we cannot dismiss the possibility of life originating by means of a supernatural being. Show over.

Btw: I am being straight with you and I appreciate you being straight with me in admittting that you or science doesn't know how life originated. I do agree with this statement you make,"the only alternative you have is that God did it through supernatural means".

 emoticon

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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


Well, Free,

You have a strange way of being straight. I still can't get you to respond to my question about whether you are a young or old earth creationist. I also posed a question for you as to why God would create natural law, then overthrow it to create life. Remember, the original proposal I made to Mel, which you decided to take up, was that we would trade off asking questions and defending our views. Are you going to answer my questions, or is that more straight than you're willing to be? If you're giving up the fight without having the courage to answer even one question, well, there's nothing I can do about that. Just remember who pulled out and who stayed in.

Be careful about deciding what science can or can't ever know. Bear in mind, as I've said, that until a little past midway through the twentieth century we didn't even know what the genes were made of. Shortly after that scientists discovered the double helix structure of DNA, the mechanism of replication and transfer of the genetic code and, finally, the genetic code itself. We still don't know how the genetic code works, that is, how a triplet codon, such as three uracil bases (UUU), which codes for the amino acid phenylalanine, recognizes the phenylalanine molecule to bond with it and lock it into the growing protein alpha helix.

So, what you are essentially saying is this:Even tough you haven't entirley figured out all the basics of the biochemistry of the simplest life form, the fact that you cant't tell in detail how life began, falsifies the entirely of evolutionary science. No other science would ever be be faced with such an outrageous assertion.

All you really have on your side is an extended version of the "God of the gaps," the mentality that says, "If sicence hasn't proven it yet, we can plug God into this gap of knowledge and call it a miracle.

Now, one last time, are you going to disclose where you stand on what sort of creationist you are and answer my first question, or are we done? Bear in mind that will not answer anymore of your questions until you answer some of mine.

Tim
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution



Tim Callahan wrote:

Well, Free,

You have a strange way of being straight. I still can't get you to respond to my question about whether you are a young or old earth creationist.



Now Tim, This isn't true. I did respond to your question. Matter of fact we were in agreement with my response. Remember? Go back and read the thread, it's in black and white/blue.


I also posed a question for you as to why God would create natural law, then overthrow it to create life.



Not relevant to origin of life.





 Remember, the original proposal I made to Mel, which you decided to take up, was that we would trade off asking questions and defending our views.



I didn't accept a proposal of any kind Tim. Matter of fact I told you how I felt about debate. All I did was ask how life originated. Go back and read.



 Are you going to answer my questions, or is that more straight than you're willing to be? If you're giving up the fight without having the courage to answer even one question, well, there's nothing I can do about that. Just remember who pulled out and who stayed in.



I am being straight. I am not fighting, that's what debate is for, therefore I am giving up anything.



Be careful about deciding what science can or can't ever know.



Believe me I am. I like science and it is apparent that you do to. The statement I made about what science hasn't done and that is explain origin of life is nothing but FACT and you are in agreement.



So, what you are essentially saying is this:Even tough you haven't entirley figured out all the basics of the biochemistry of the simplest life form, the fact that you cant't tell in detail how life began, falsifies the entirely of evolutionary science.



No I haven't figured it out, neither have you or science. I don't know where you get the rest of your statement, but it is false. Again I say go back and read the thread.



All you really have on your side is an extended version of the "God of the gaps," the mentality that says, "If sicence hasn't proven it yet, we can plug God into this gap of knowledge and call it a miracle.



I am not the one that brought God into this Tim, You are. Go back and read.




Conclusion:

Question: How did life originate?

Answer: Tim doesn't know
           Science doesn't know





Last edited by Free04, 2/12/2009, 3:48 am


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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


Apparently we disagree about what were going to discuss. Further, I doubt if we ever will agree about much of anything. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter of the origin of life. By your remarks I can see that the subject is closed.

Now, do you mind anwering a simple question? The question is this: When do you think the earth came into existence, regardless of by what means? Was it roughly 10,000 years ago or more like 4.5 billion years ago?

Tim

Last edited by Tim Callahan, 2/12/2009, 6:56 pm
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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


the silence is deafening........

game...
set...
and Match!

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Re: Skeptical of Evolution


whoops emoticon

Last edited by Free04, 2/13/2009, 3:10 am


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Re: Skeptical of Evolution



Free04 wrote:


Tim Callahan wrote:

Apparently we disagree about what were going to discuss. Further, I doubt if we ever will agree about much of anything. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter of the origin of life. By your remarks I can see that the subject is closed.



Actually I think we do agree. You have admitted that science does not explain the origin of life. I agree. Science does not explain the origin of life as many atheist tend to believe. There is only one alternative, as you say.

We could continue this discussion for the rest of our lives and the conclusion would be the same.

Science does not explain the origin of life.

Last edited by Free04, 2/13/2009, 3:18 am


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